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IPC Species Doc #501
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IPC Species Doc #501
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IPCs are resistant to EMPs, but are still stunned by them. Complete loss of power will result in the IPC shutting down. | ||
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### Repairs |
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We still don't have surgery so we won't have to explain repairs in that context. Still some points worth expanding upon.
Repairs needs a bit more detail. Jury-rigging seems like the equivalent of making gauze from clothing to treat pierce/slash wounds, while repair kits seem like the equivalent of printing topicals.
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Yeah, again this needs much more details, and a plan for how this will integrate into future medical gameplay changes.
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I'll think of ways to expand on this for my next revision.
## Core Visual Elements | ||
IPCs are bipedal humanoids. While their silhouette is similar to a human or slimeperson, their bodies and limbs are visually distinct in that they are mechanical, and the iconic TV head. The sounds they make are robotic and mechanical in nature, similar if not identical to the sounds cyborgs make. | ||
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## Mechanics |
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IPCs, borgs and machines (vendors, lathes, consoles, etc.) are similar in concept. There's a missing opportunity to talk about machine mechanics overall as we haven't fully meshed out thermal management, per-part damage and repairs in SS14.
You probably also need a small section explaining similarities and differences to organic player species and why that is the case.
You may also want to note why IPCs don't play similarly to skeletons or space-immune mobs (despite the idea that sci-fi machines are immune to space). This will be important since IPCs are available round-start and spacing is a major mechanic that other species must deal with.
Overheat and Coolant sections are on the right track. Though I would like to point out two interesting real life mechanics that make space-faring robots difficult:
- Radiation hardening of electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening
- Cold welding of joints and sockets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding#In_space
You should review the Species PR Guidelines. Going through the rules:
This species needs to interact with Medical. It also needs to have a reason to engage with the Chef and Barkeeper, although it does not need to be able to deliberately eat and drink. It also must interact with atmospherics outside of the species' temperature sensitivities. It must interact with reagents, or have equivalent gameplay. Specifically this species as designed is specifically banned by Rule 9. To quote:
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I've heard in some SS13 forks like paradise, IPCs were pretty fragile but could be repaired easily; their limbs would fall off often, but it gives them a lot more interaction with surgery Considering they fundementally don't have a chemstream like all other species, I think IPCs would better fit in upstream only after newmed and surgery gets implemented. As it currently stands there's no way to have them slot in with medical gameplay without:
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They should not have any interaction with regular medicine, but there should be special reagents like repairing nanites or smth. Lube should work like meth, some kind of destroying nanites (I, Robot) should work like poison etc. |
If nanites could be splashed on Borgs or other robotic mobs to heal them a bit, that would be a neat idea I was originally worried of having to make something a advanced chem of every blunt/heat type but for IPCs, as making and using the right type of medicine for the right type of damage is the only real gameplay loop in medical at the moment. You could avoid that by having nanites be the one type of reagent needed to heal IPCs for all main damage types (ie. Bicaridine), but that still leaves the problem of IPCs being way too effortless to heal damage for |
Or also maybe regarding Coolant, maybe it has like a half-life/decays/melts-off/evaporates/whatever when not in a machine/IPC, meaning that to stay topped off IPCs would have to make regular check-ins to medical or chem to get their dose of coolant, as they wouldn't be able to carry a stock with them to to the previously mentioned decaying of it. |
IPCs use a hydrocarbon based dielectric coolant with self sealing properties in place of blood. | ||
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The coolant does not carry any gas for respiration, instead it regulates the IPC's temperature. Low coolant levels can lead to overheating. Coolant can be made by chemists, or processed by the IPC by drinking ethanol. | ||
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Being exposed to low pressure environments can cause the coolant to boil off, eventually resulting in the IPC overheating. |
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This feels extremely vague, and needs a more in-depth mechanical explanation.
Also none of these mechanics can really be implemented at the moment without improving body code first - and doing so with a simplified placeholder would add technical debt that makes the med refactor more complicated.
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I can expand on some of the details or rewrite some of it. I also imagine it wouldn't be too bad to implement components that support these ideas with plans to replace them when body code or medical is refactored.
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I didn't note this earlier but I personally like the idea that coolant levels change with temperature and pressure, which sounds like tying blood level to barotrauma damage. This by itself sets it apart from other species but also sounds technically complex for SS14.
Being exposed to low pressure environments can cause the coolant to boil off, eventually resulting in the IPC overheating. | ||
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### Powered | ||
IPCs utilize an internal fuel cell to generate power in conjunction with a supercapacitor to handle load spikes or loss of main power. |
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This will be hard to implement, as batteries are not predicted at the moment.
Feature-wise I think it's interesting, but you should be aware that there are technical blockers for implementing this.
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I'll probably just remove the battery and rewrite this section.
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IPCs are resistant to EMPs, but are still stunned by them. Complete loss of power will result in the IPC shutting down. | ||
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### Repairs |
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Yeah, again this needs much more details, and a plan for how this will integrate into future medical gameplay changes.
While I have a lot of research notes on IPCs, I got too scared to write a design doc for them because there's so many other systems that need overhauls to support them. Not just surgery but possibly bodypart targeting and machine health. The main issue is that we don't want them to be 'easy mode' for players, yet robots aren't really affected by biological systems like medical and hunger by convention.
I personally think an exception should be made but only because IPCs will still require healing/repairs; they will go to Robotics instead, thus facilitating department interaction. |
Actually, regarding atmospherics, we can just apply the real world concept of air cooling to IPCs. |
Heat management was my first idea, but I believe that to be far too complicated to introduce, both code and gameplay. |
Flowmos be like: For real though, real life computers require a lot of cooling, which you can't really do in space with fans. Space stations and other vessels in general actually have to consider thermal management, which is why they have giant radiators. I left an earlier comment that suggested expanding on the idea of tying coolant level to external temperature and pressure if that interests you. |
I believe it is going to be far easier mechanically to not do air based temperature regulation, and much easier for the player to understand. Especially if the end result is the same, being hot kills you and being too cold kills you. |
Isn't the point of the air based regulation to implement some kind of Atmos interaction though? Every species has being to hot or cold kills you. |
Now that I think about it, it should probably be a distinct parameter (we can call it CPU temperature), not the general temperature of the whole chassis, and it should not be tied to it. |
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As it stands the submitted design document is fairly bare-bones and is hard to review or consider, with multiple aspects like "shutting down" not explained at all. As FSP already said, there are multiple aspects of IPCs that completely circumvent elements of gameplay, which need to be addressed somehow.
I also question if this species is even worth implementing before mechanics and system cleanup regarding Medical arrive. If implemented now, it would add a bunch of debt that has to be torn out and re-implemented by the thankless people working on cleaning up the medical/body side, and I don't want to burden them unnecessarily.
I would like to mention now, before I rewrite parts of the doc, that IPCs do have a reason to interact with the bartender. IPCs have a variety of fuel sources they can choose from, and ethanol contained in alcoholic drinks is one of them. |
Probably can't be implemented currently but good to write stuff down and revise in meantime. Had this document not been written I wouldn't have provided my own feedback. |
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## Core Visual Elements | ||
IPCs are bipedal humanoids. While their silhouette is similar to a human or slimeperson, their bodies and limbs are visually distinct in that they are mechanical, and the iconic TV head. The sounds they make are robotic and mechanical in nature, similar if not identical to the sounds cyborgs make. | ||
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## Mechanics | ||
### Death and Shut down |
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I'm still confused at the definition of 'shut down'; how is it mechanically different to dying when taking sufficient amounts of damage? Can they be revived without a defib by rebooting them? Borgs by comparison use the damageable component like any other species but use robotic health alerts.
Lack of crit state is cool, though keep in mind IPCs will need different damage slowdowns due to increased overall health.
IPCs are resistant to EMPs, but are still stunned by them. Complete loss of power will result in the IPC shutting down. | ||
If the IPC does not have oxygen, they will suffocate and take asphyxiation damage, at a faster rate than every other species. | ||
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EMPs will not outright kill or shut down an IPC, though it will stamcrit them. |
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'EMPs will not outright kill or shut down' implies they will take shock damage, is this the case?
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### Powered | ||
IPCs utilize an internal fuel cell to generate power in conjunction with a supercapacitor to handle load spikes or loss of main power. | ||
The fuel cell uses oxygen and any flammable liquid at varying efficiencies such as welding fuel from maintenance, vodka from the bartender, or liquid tritium from atmos. |
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You're describing a robot powered by internal combustion engine with ethanol. The Futurama reference is gold.
I think there's potential for describing how IPCs can eat items and gain energy via combustion, even if it makes them suspiciously similar to biological species.
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The tools and materials needed for repair depend on the damage taken. Brute damage requires that the chassis or myomers be repaired, so steel and welders, or screwdrivers, wirecutters, and plastics. Heat damage requires electronics to be repaired, so wires and wirecutters. Caustic damage will also need steel and welders to replace the damaged chassis Radiation requires scrubbing of radioactive materials off of the IPC with sheets of plasma. Blindness and eye can be fixed with a crowbar and reinforced glass. | ||
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Genetic damage is a mechanical enforcement damage type, so IPCs will not be immune. They will need normal treatment just as every other species does. |
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While I agree with Genetics being mechanical enforcement, it seems rather odd a silicon is able to gain and get treated for Genetic damage. I would talk with Slam about how implanters should interact with IPCs (maybe cause them to shut down or gain 200 shock damage)
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If an IPC is dead they will need to be repaired above the death threshold and/or refueled. If the IPC is sufficiently refueled and repaired, their fuel cell can be jump started with a defibrilator. | ||
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Science's exosuit fabricator and the medical techfab can produce repair kits that act similar to the standard topicals. |
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I don't think it's required but I would personally say if borgs can be repaired with repair kits, and if they should retain the current system of welding repairing all damage.
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Science's exosuit fabricator and the medical techfab can produce repair kits that act similar to the standard topicals. | ||
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### Metabolism |
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Letting IPCs metabolise chems is strange given their machine nature.
That being said, it doesn't mean IPCs should be immune to chemicals. If anything, they should suffer short-circuits or corrosion as their coolant is displaced by non-fuel reagents. Another idea would be to let them hold certain chemicals in a reservoir that they can dispense in a mix.
I've come to the realization that this doc will need to be a lot more detailed than it currently is, and I don't have the time to do that right now. I'll expand on everything (or rewrite it) when I get the time. |
Had some thoughts reading this as someone who loves the concept of IPCs
Now, I take issue with this. First off I don't think IPCs should get Binary at all, but mainly I think the Positronic > Photonic change is unnecessary? The positronic is already supposed to be integrated - built in - and I think you can use that fact as more of a reason to not allow them to speak when gibbed (an IPCs brain is not modular, so cannot function without the rest of the chassis, it doesn't have internal power, and you might even be able to call it an "advanced positronic") I think keeping it the same as the existing ingame "living ai" brain, or at least thematically the same, keeps the flavour that this is what a sophont android would look like in-universe. Also, NT doesn't manufacture IPCs - every implementation I've seen of IPCs has multiple different companies manufacturing them, which allows them their versatile appearance that defines the species in my mind.
I think the battery system is really flavourful. It'd be a shame not to keep it. I know you say it will be "replaced" by the internal generator, but I think it can instead still exist and enhance the system.
I think this misses what I consider a key part of the IPC Core Visual Element - Highly Customizable. They are a manufactured species, they are not confined to one shape of arm, head, torso, or leg. I love how customizable IPCs are in other forks, its rare to see two that look alike.
Its interesting to keep the shutdown system without a limited power source and without the EMP weakness. I know I'm personally not a fan of walking into hot rooms being a practical insta-kill, its already frustrating enough on Moth. IPCs should definitely have to worry about temperature though. Machines need such careful consideration for the temperature they work in, and atmosphere is a Major Game Mechanic.
Isn't ethanol already being used for the fueling system? I think a hydrocarbon based coolant might be too easy when considering the reagents commonly available, but to me difficulty healing should one of the IPC downsides.
I don't think this makes sense. Asphyx just feels so Wrong for a mechanical species. It feels like a compromise or half-measure over planning to add something to make the flavour feel real.
Are you telling me the IPC has no internal power storage? They stop producing power and thats it? In the game that has SMESes, they couldn't figure out how to make a robot not need to be constantly chugging fuel?
I've never been a fan of the scrappy DIY repairs IPCs are capable of, I think the only thing being able to use materials (or tools) to repair yourself accomplishes is dissuading you from going to get treated.
While I do think it is important to keep the mechanical enforcement damage for IPCs, the flavour of it being "Genetic" feels Wrong. I'd rather see IPCs get a parallel damage type like "Data Corruption" that serves the same purpose.
IPCs using organic chems is a death knell to flavour. It strips out a core thing about IPCS - They are Not organic, they Cannot be treated like organics, they have to have their own system.
Some chemicals should absolutely still hurt IPCs. Razorium is bad for organics not because it does something chemically to them, no it makes sharp knives in their blood. There are a bunch of acids that should absolutely fuck up an IPC. IPCs not being able to use stuff like omnizine is their tradeoff for not being able to be affected by things like amatoxin. I think Romerol has to find a way to affect IPCs, my biggest pet peeves with downstream IPCs is they are immune to zeds. Noct is a thing thats probably worth making then affected by simply because it is The uplink chem that works out of the box and it'd suck to become a noob trap because oops your target is actually an IPC sorry about the TC bud. To me, IPC medical is defined as being one of the IPCs downsides. I know the WizDen species doc has made clear that any robot species Must Be Treated by Medical, and I do agree with this. In a time of crisis, you shouldn't have to sort the bodies between med and robotics, everyone should just go to med. I think there is space to expand on the advanced topical system by adding more immediately useful recipes that are IPC topicals, so that chemists have an entry point to learn the system. I think IPCs should have their own reagent ecosystem with logical overlap. I think IPCs should have a focus on being repaired over taking medicine, and their 120HP rather than the 100/200HP of organics will practically result in this (topicals are for the dead after all). And I think it'd be fun to apply those systems to Borgs and add them as an option for Vox. -- Ultimately, my opinion on this design doc is that it compromises the flavour of a mechanical species in favour of trying to squeeze them into working with existing systems instead of imagining how the way this game works can be expanded upon to include a robotic species that isn't Borgs. I am very very excited to see IPCs come to WizDen :> |
I feel this is bad UX, because you would have two things named "positronic brain" that are different, and bad for players to understand. Easier to just separate it out into a new brain.
Its a balance thing, and some other maints said they don't really like the battery thing. I personally believe it'll just force science to go industrial t3 for the microreactors for any IPCs and borgs on the station.
I never said they weren't customizable.
They do.
Using coolant for fuel is meant to be a last resort, suffer from low coolant for not taking care of your needs.
Required for balance, otherwise you get a species that doesn't care about space.
Also required for balance. Means they can't get instantly round removed by someone with an EMP, and if they do run out of fuel they die, meaning they can be recovered by someone looking at the crew monitor (if they have suit coords on).
That's why other people can repair you much faster and easier. You can fix yourself, like a human can fix themselves with topicals. Someone else healing you with topicals goes much faster.
This would be nice, but it might be a bit too complicated to add a new damage type that shows up for only one species.
Right now, its somewhat necessary to comply with the species document. Without chems, they could almost completely ignore medical.
By being capable of metabolism, those chemicals can still hurt the IPC.
This is already planned, for balance. Maybe it'll require some re-writing of lore that we don't officially have as to why these chemicals work.
Chemists will absolutely hate this, having to make two sets of chemicals to treat the same damage type. Also bad for the doctors who then have to figure out which chem to use on a human and which chem to use on an IPC.
That is the plan with the repairs, and unwritten idea of making metabolism sluggish.
This is the biggest issue with the doc as it is now, the only way for medical to treat people is with chemicals. Its probably worth waiting until we get a medical refactor and get surgery. |
Barotrauma? spaceships have to be very carefully designed to not get ripped to shreds in space, and I don't think an IPC has been made to keep air in or out. They'd absolutely start having gas force its way out of their internal structure ripping them apart. |
The document has them boil off coolant if they're depressurized. Breathing is required for balance, and because the fuel cell uses combustion. |
First of all, I did read the document, thoroughly, at least three times. I am aware what the document says, I am saying I disagree with certain directions and how they impact flavour. I do not believe responding to my response with "that is what the document says" accurately responds to my response, and many of the quotes pulled from my response were set up for further points and thus I believe there may be some miscommunication between us. With that said,
I mean, if you go with the "ambiguous whether its a positronic or an MMI" you can make the brain item be a "processor housing".
Right, but instead of worrying about temperature because being in a poor temperature environment is dealing damage and so they have to leave and cool off or heat up, instead it insta-crits them because its too hot. Which is what I said in my comment I think
I mean I think they can have an internal power system akin to hunger and still be weak to EMPs without it being an instakill. EMPs could instead be a longstun or even a sleep. Might need extra coding, though.
Maybe instead of using powercells, they require special IPC batteries, that would prevent microreactors becoming meta for IPCs while still keeping the fun parts of the mechanics.
It would be for Any robots. Borgs, Bots, maybe even Vox.
Please read the surrounding text of the original statement, where I talk about altering IPC metabolism to not be identical to organic metabolism.
Chemists already make multiple chemicals for the same damage type. I know I personally would love to actually think more as both a chemist and doctor on how to treat a patient. Adding more complexity to chem and med is not a downside in my mind.
In the section where you outlined your take on the species key visual elements, you did not actively mention a thing I consider to be a key visual element. I took this omission as an indicator it would therefore Not be a key visual element of this take on IPCs.
Right, but other than gauze those topicals are locked behind medbay or cargo orders or sometimes mapped in salvage, whilst using mats and tools means the ability to be self-sufficient.
I disagree that breathing is required for balance. As long as IPCs are susceptible to barotrauma and atmos temperature, not needing to breathe is fine imo. At most air might be required for the transfer of heat away from the coolant, but that can be achieved with any gas. It might even allow for more interesting situations, such as the IPC getting differing effects depending on the gases they are interacting with. Even if they require immersion in a gas medium for cooling reasons, I don't think they should require respiration or specifically oxygen. That takes away more flavour. Again, this take on IPCs feels too much like an organic species in a robot veneer. It will not be satisfying to play. I will now quote the species pr guidelines.
I think the flavor direction means that the distinct identy of robotic species is lost on a mechanical level even if its still there on an aesthetic level.
I quote this part of the guidelines mainly to underline that I believe compromising on the flavour to suit existing mechanics is at odds with WizDens position as Vanilla/Upstream. From my perspective WizDen aims for a measure twice cut once approach with the design doc system. Therefore imo by limiting the desing to existing mechanics, damages, methods, and systems, it exists at-odds with the fact this is for upstream. Upstream is the vanilla, the definer of what mechanics, damages, methods, and systems exist, and design documents are exactly the space to describe what new ones should exist. |
This is the document for IPCs. They've had no testing upstream, but are pretty popular downstream with a whole host of balancing woes. Hope I've done good enough to help with some of the balance concerns.
Will need a decent chunk of work, they do have several unique but analogous mechanics to existing species.