NodeRed Heishamon - 2 zones

[nofeardh]

Hi,

I opened this discussion because I wanted to help with 2 zones setup on this project. Edterbak: I saw on https://gathering.tweakers.net/ that you need help with some values. I'm using 2zone setup with Heishamon module and I do whole logic for Zone2 in NodeRed (operate mixing valve&water pumps). Please let me know what you need and I will try to answer.

P.S.: since I'm not from Netherlands I cannot register on tweakers.net forum :(

you can also write me on nofeardh at gmail.com

[edterbak]

oh COOL. 😄
Thank you for this. !!!! Mega helpfull

What I would really like to know is what happens to the following TOPxx in the followint scenarios.

1. Zone 1 active, circulation only, compressor off
2. Zone 1 active, circulation compressor on
3. Zone 2 active, circulation only, compressor off
4. Zone 2 active, circulation compressor on

TOP20 | ThreeWay_Valve_State | 0 | Room

TOP94 | Zones_State | 0 | Zone1 active

TOP123 | Z2_Pump_State | 0 | Off
TOP124 | Z1_Pump_State | 0 | Off
TOP125 | TwoWay_Valve_State | 1 | Heat
TOP126 | ThreeWay_Valve_State2 | 0 | Room

The purpose of this info, is that I would like to be able to detect Z1+Z2 setup's AND be able to see which zone is currently operational.

THANK YOU

[geduxas]

So for zone detection i think best bet will be TOP94, and compressor state.. but it's tricky. for example i have buffer tank. So it will heat buffer tank, and each zone will pick heat from buffer tank as they needed.. it will drive mixing valve to set it's desired heat..

[geduxas]

Hi, i am also running in 2 zones.
i could answer this question's :)

TOP20, is always in room side if not preparing DHW.
TOP94 will always show activated zones (you can change active zones in RC for example all zones/first zone/second zone) it will react only on this
TOP123/TOP124 circulating pump's are always on and running while zones are active

TOP125 is only for Heating/Cooling mode.

TOP126 is duplicates TOP20.

also i am testing room thermostats for Z1 and Z2, if thermostat is OFF Z1 or Z2 pump will be switched OFF but it will not effect TOP94

[nofeardh]

Hi,

TOP20 - Not zone dependent - Room or DHW
TOP94 - 0=Zone1 active only, 1=zone2 active only, 2=zone1+zone2 active (does no not depent on compressor state)
TOP123 - Zone 2 pump, allways ON if heat pump turned on (does no not depent on compressor state)
TOP124 - Zone 1 pump, allways ON if heat pump turned on (does no not depent on compressor state)
TOP125 - 0 = Heat, 1= cool
TOP126 - 0 = Room, 1 = DWH (depents on if heating or preparing DHW) (example If TOP4=Heat+DHW then TOP126 can be Room or DHW)

Compressor frequency has no impact on above TOP values. I think you can only monitor which zone is currently active, but you can not monitor "in real time" to which zone heat pump is currently providing heat. That also depends on mixing value position. Heat pump target water temp will allways be highest required value of two zones.

I hope that geduxas and my info helps you.

[geduxas]

all active zones are heated. also how how much energy required in each zone is determinate only by mixing valve. As for mixing valve we have some experimenting topics (TOP127/TOP128) which represent's some kind of PID value for each zone..

[nofeardh]

Good to know...I didn't know about Top127/128 until today :)

[nofeardh]

Maybe additional info: TOP123 and TOP124 are OFF when producing DHW (TOP126=1)

I'm not sure about TOP123 and TOP124 during defrost period.

[geduxas]

it should be testesd, i have buffer tank installed, so circulating pump's are always on while pump is in heating mode. in summer time i think they turns off. Also as i mentioned earlier i am using room thermostat's so also pumps are turned off if heat is not requered for zone.

[nofeardh]

I also have buffer tank installed, but I don't have buffer tank active in menu. But I don't think this has impact on water pump.

When outside temp rise above heat cut-off temp then compressor turns OFF, all water pumps OFF (T123&124=0). Everything else stays the same.

[edterbak]

Okey.. THANK YOU VERY MUCH ALL !!!!

What I can detect:
TOP8 | Compressor_Freq | Compressor on/off
TOP20 | ThreeWay_Valve_State | Valve position on ROOM or DHW
TOP94 | Zones_State | Configuration of the hardware. This does not change depending on actual operation.
TOP99 | Buffer_Installed | Configuration of the hardware. This does not change on operation. (but usefull)

In case TOP94 is 0 or 1, there is no question where the heat is going to.
In case TOP94=2 AND TOP99 = 1 (Buffer installed), then Z1+Z2_valve_PID determine the selection.
In case TOP94=2 AND TOP99 = 0 , this seems not determinable yet...

I am looking for a TOP value, which can help with this still. But it seems difficult

I am starting to ask myself if my assumption is correct that the Panasonic heatpump is even managing the selection of Zone 1 or Zone 2. Is my assumption incorrect?

[geduxas]

@nofeardh ok zone2 indicates to turn off compressor, but zone1 still request for heat..

As for RTC i hooked 2 relays from heishamon large board to zone thermostat, and linked to room temperature sensors, and HA virtual thermostat now controls it. Also by enabling externally thermostat in heishamon i have lost ability to shift setpoint. But thermostats are turning off whole zone (mixing valve closing, circulation pump stops operating) then all zones are switched off compressor will switch off.

[nofeardh]

As for RTC I meant to adjust curve for each zone regarding to room temp. But yes It's little more complicated to decide when to turn compressor off. I'm not using compressor on-off action because heat curve adjustments is enough for me.

[edterbak]

Look, panasonic prepares heat. And zones are for distribution that heat by desired temperature. So if you enable zone, it wil start circulation pump, and if you have mixing valves it wil operate them to reduce temperature.

Main setpoint for target temperature will be highest desired zone set point. Wins bigest set point and it becomes main target point for heatpump. Also if you have installed buffer tank and enabled it, it will add deltaT of buffer tank to that highest temp, and it becomes target temperature.

Bear minimum to enable multiple zones, you have to have optional PCB and temperature sensors for zone supply pipe.

So i think you're little bit overthinking :) just treat pump as energy source, buffer tank as some kind of battery, and zones as consumer's..

I have been thinking about it. On high level again. On how the layout of a menu dash should look
Is this a better representation of what could be usefull?

Your seeing the pump with next to it DHW and ROOM. If you press that, you will select that entity and show some info which could be usefull. The details on this is still not there yet, but first I want the big picture correct

[nofeardh]

@edterbak Hi....do you have any plans on impelemnt dual-zone RTC and WAR support?

[edterbak]

@edterbak Hi....do you have any plans on impelemnt dual-zone RTC and WAR support?

Yes, but this is a major item to realize. I have to think abou the approach

AND I lack the hardware and in depth knowledge about this. So I need a lot of help from you guys.

[edterbak]

@nofeardh @geduxas
I have created a big update, it is now nearly possible to use WAR function for 2 zones...

I am looking for people to test.
Anyone up for it within a couple of weeks?

What I still need to do:
1: break out SoftStart function from zone 1 / 2 stuff. It should be zone independant.
2: Create the nodes that actually send the zone 2 target setpoints.

zone 1

zone 2

[edterbak]

[edterbak]

The challenge for me now, is to get it functional correctly. This still requires me to work on it for a week or 3 maybe..

All of the functions combined, calculate a z1 setpoint and a z2 setpoint.
These will be sent to the panasonic.
After that, I need to check if it has been correclty applied.

Now with zone 1 AND zone 2, it is likely someone is using Buffertank.
So the logic needs to be aware of this, and compensate for it during the check.

I will need someone to test in a couple of weeks
Someone with 2 zones
Someone with buffertank enabled

It requires some extensive testing by someone who can make a propper backup (like with Proxmox) of the current working system. :)

To give the idea, these scenarios need to be tested:
Scenario 1:

• TOP76 (HeatingMode) 1-direct
• TOP99 (Buffer_Installed) 0 (not installed)
  - TOP111/112 Z1/2_Sensor_Settings 0-water
  - TOP111/112 Z1/2_Sensor_Settings 1-thermostat internal

Scenario 2: same as scenario 1 but with TOP99 Buffer_Installed =1 installed zone 1 dominant
Scenario 3: same as scenario 1 but with TOP99 Buffer_Installed =1 installed zone 2 dominant

Any volunteers?

[edterbak]

i would like to test, i am on 2 zone with buffer tank, but it will be hard to test something while it's summer time :D

Are you able to take a propper backup?
It will be an 'alpha build' not suited for general public.

For anyone who wants to test upcomming alpha's ...
You probably need to revert to the 25,02 (current) version. which is not good enough to just re-import the old flow.
The reason for this that for the work I am doing, I have renamed and moved a lot of the stored variables. So going back in a regular way will result in empty stored settings probably requiring you to re-setup stuff like RTC / WAR temperature lines and profiles.

Easiest is if you have proxmox for instance where you can take a full backup.
Or a complete independant node red instance dedicated for the testing.

[geduxas]

It's ok for me, because of lack for 2 zone, i am almost not using node red.. so it will be best for clean setup :)

[geduxas]

Is there anywhere ready script? I don't see right now what should i test ;)

[edterbak]

Not yet. I am still 3 days on holiday (again, yes)
After that i need to finalize the zone 2 functionality.

Just before i left, i got the redesign zone 1 working again with WAR zone1, RTC zone1.

I have broken out softstart and night reduction. These will be set once and applied to both zones. For now.
Maybe in the future i will make night reduction for 2 zones independently. But not right now.

So planning wise... I need to check and double check if zone 1 is solid.
Do the same for zone 2
This will require 2 weeks at least.
I will release it on the main page as a new branch and i will notify you here.

[geduxas]

Ok, take care yourself! Rest well :) i thought it just will be somewhere :D thanks!

[edterbak]

Hello all,

I have added a new branch.
https://github.com/edterbak/NodeRed_Heishamon_control/tree/25.1-ALPHA-1

Please read it, especially this part "I Need Your Help for Step 2"
If possible and you are willing to assist me, please drop me an e-mail.

I will post the json soon.

[edterbak]

I have uploaded the new Alpha testversion here.

https://github.com/edterbak/NodeRed_Heishamon_control/tree/25.1-ALPHA-1

@geduxas Are you interested to test?

[geduxas]

i think i found this spam (its in zon2 correction function, node.warn('1'), but it isn't spam at all.. so something went different that time

[edterbak]

Hi.
Thank you for the information. Perfect.
The hw is most certainly not a limitation. Thats great, one item stricked through.
Yes. The warning seems to be a debugging leftover from me that should not impact things luckily. But sorry for that

Yes. You can do all changes while flooding. Hopefully it will stop at a certain moment.

Could you Maybe try only zone 1 to see if that stops the flooding?

Currently i am outside, still for 1,5 hours i guess.
Would it be possible in 1,5 hours to connect over Discord? You can use [email protected] to continue sharing the details to connect.

[edterbak]

@geduxas
I saw in the 'just befor crash log' that node "a9c63eb8ad0d1193" smooth, is producing a NaN.
Can you check the input for of this node is "WAR function (Temperature)" on the System-tab > Sensor section.
Just verify what is coming in. IF it is not an issue, you should see a nice graph in the CCC chart(s) like below:

[geduxas]

I tried to track that error, and it lead's to outdoor sensor.. i have some weather station which is reporting via mqtt to home assistant, and it's mapped from ha via node red.. I don't have history on flow in that time ,(or don't know how to look) but in HA history this seams ok to me.

[edterbak]

I have an update, alpha 3.
I fixed a couple of things related to zone 2. Can you test it?

https://github.com/edterbak/NodeRed_Heishamon_control/tree/25.1-ALPHA

[edterbak]

It would be nice if we can connect tomorrow via Discord
That would speed up the development and debugging a lot.
doing via chat is not really working well as it is to slow in information turnaround.

I really require some help here :) Hope someone can help via discord.

[edterbak]

Is there anyone with 2 zones in use who is willing to connect with me over Discord, or something?

Someone who has a backup. 😃
We can work and look at it together.
Ill need 30m to 1 hour to start first time. See from there

It would speed up development for 2 zones and buffer 100x.

[geduxas]

Good to know that i am not alone :) i had some issues, but it could not be related to this beta build.. keep an eye on it!

[nofeardh]

@geduxas one question not directly related to this solution - how do you operate your mixing valve (if you're using emulate pcb option)? Via NodeRed custom flow?

[geduxas]

no i have expansion board, so don't need to. As for emulation, try to use TOP127-128, which was bring in latest heishamon, they act like PID controller for mixing valve, it will go to 100 as requesting more heat for zone, and go back to 0 to lower heat..

[nofeardh]

@edterbak I noticed one possible bug.....if I change Ccc curve for Zone2, correct SetCurves value is send to heatpump, but on Heishamon GUI I see wrong (old) value under "Final water temperature" for Zone 2.

And I noticed that sometimes there is difference between sensor value for RTC under system/settings menu and RTC menu.

[edterbak]

@nofeardh
I just released a newer alpha version 5. please try that one to solve a mqtt spam issue.

In addition, if you find a bug or weird think in the alpha's, please just make a bug report in the 'issue' section.
Mention the version you are using.
You can add pictures and steps to reproduce.

doing this helps me to keep issues clean and searchable.

I really appreciate your effort in testing the alpha's !!! Thank you

[nofeardh]

Hi @edterbak

I would like to give you feedback regarding buffer & Alpha versions. According to my tests with buffer=ON everything is working OK. Buffer target temperature is allways set as: highest target temp (Z1 or Z2 - whichever is highest) + 2 degrees + set delta.

Example:
Z1 target=32, Z2 target=28
buffer delta (in settings) = 0
buffer target temp = 32 + 2 +0 = 34

I think you don't need to implement anything at all in your flow regarding buffer. Everything is working out of the box.

What is your plan regarding automations&Z1/Z2? Is it possible to implement logic that will turn off specific zone if target temp is above defined temp? Example: turn off Z1 (radiators) if temp above 24C...keep only Z2 (underfloor heating ground floor).

The only additional setting I would like to see in this workflow is ability to set minimal time interval between compressor runs....I'm not sure if this is possible to achieve (maybe with heat pump ON/OFF) but other heat pump have this option built in and It helps to prevent turning compressor off/on in short period of time.

[geduxas]

As soon as you switch off zone2, mixing valve for that zone will be in close state, pid i think (will need to check) will go to off ( 0 value) and circulation pump will be turned off.

[geduxas]

So it will be same as in my graphics, now as i running on thermostat, off is literally shouts down zone heating..

[edterbak]

In that case, it could be of benefit indeed.
Once the 2 zones stuff is working robustly and it is released as stable, could have a look at this

Could you please (if you havent already) make a feature request for this?

[nofeardh]

@edterbak hi...just a short update - 25.06 beta is running OK on my side (Z1+Z2, RTC, CCC)

[edterbak]

I updated the flow. it has an improvement for buffertank + softstart function. Sometimes the softstart setpoint would drop too low, even lower than the setpoint of the buffertank, causing the compressor to turn off

[edterbak]

At everyone who is using a buffertank or 2 zones.

the latest alpha version seems to be working nicely with this.
Even the softstart function with buffer tank is working nicely.

I would invite you to test the latest version fith this.
It is in a separate branch
https://github.com/edterbak/NodeRed_Heishamon_control/tree/25.1-ALPHA'

I have had feedback from 2 people already it is working. So befor I make it stable, I would like to have more confirmation on the stability.
This week I will release a Beta version with it all, and some other nice additions.

Happy testing all..

PS.
If there is an issue, please open a new issue on the board for it.
Posts in the discussion forum I do not get a notification from.

[geduxas]

@edterbak i found why it was spamming to mqtt

[edterbak]

Yes, I have that fixed already on my local (next release)

current_sp = global.get('TOP34_Z2_Heat_Request_Temp');

[edterbak]

and just 27 minutes later, I released this "next release".
You can try it if it is functional.
I am very much interested in the results.

[geduxas]

Are something else made in new release? Because i had fixed that after i found, and seams work's..

[edterbak]

What fixes did you introduce?
if you have a list, I can include them in my build.

In the release notes, there are more details on what I did;
Version 25.06 (! Beta 5 !)
Changes:

• Fix Softstart: Buffertank enabled would have bad performance. Variable was not initialized propperly.
• Fix Zone2: No change in setpoint being sent other than 0 or 1. There was a math error.
• Fix Zone2: MQTT Comand spamming resolved.
• New Feature: Created a generic control mechanism to verify sent commands have been processed. If not, a retry is initiated with a maximum retrycount of 3 for each topic. This is done for a couple of the most important commands.
• Added an auto-tuning noice filter to the input sensors by default.
• Fix Scheduler: Toggle functions to accomadate zone 1 and zone 2 were not adjusted yet. Now they should be working
• Fix Scheduler: Removing line 2 did not work. Now it does.